C-27J Spartan (e c-27A/g222)

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MatteF88
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Re: C-27J Spartan (e c-27A/g222)

Messaggio da MatteF88 »

richelieu ha scritto:La RAAF lo vuole .....
Australia has a long-standing requirement for tactical transport aircraft to fill the void created when the country’s military phased out its de Havilland Canada DHC-4 Caribou aircraft. It is clear that the C-27J is a more expensive aircraft, so the Australians may be using the C295 pricing to negotiate a more competitive deal with Alenia.

Brown says the issue the air force has with the C295 is there are some types of Australian army military vehicles that the C295 is unable to transport. He cites as an example the army’s new G-Wagon all-terrain vehicles.

He says armies in Europe may be content to just drive a G-Wagon, but “you have long distances in Australia,” so these vehicles have to be transported by air.
Premesso che di trattative economiche non ci capisco una fava..ma perchè ipotizzare che gli aussies possano far leva sul prezzo inferiore del c295 per spuntare un sconto sullo spartan, quando il c295 non è in grado di soddisfare appieno i requisiti necessari?
Mi spiego, sarebbe un po' come se io andassi da un concessionario rangerover e gli dicessi: senti voglio un defender perchè voglio fare un fuoristrada nel deserto del sahara però, visto che la fiat produce la panda4x4 vorrei che mi facessi uno sconto..
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richelieu
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Re: C-27J Spartan (e c-27A/g222)

Messaggio da richelieu »

Perchè è vero che gli Australiani preferiscono lo "Spartan" in virtù delle migliori prestazioni che è in grado di offrire, ma, dal momento che si tratta di un acquisto che prevede considerevoli esborsi, cercano di trarre il massimo vantaggio sui costi sventolando lo spauracchio del più competitivo (solo sul prezzo) competitore.
Tu chiamalo, se vuoi, un ricatto ..... :x ..... ma, credo, sia ormai purtroppo un comportamento comune in tante transazioni commerciali .....

Ripropongo ora, mediante un link, l'articolo di "Aerospace Daily and Defense Report" (AW&ST) che avevo postato alcuni giorni fa in quanto ho visto che gli si è accodata un'interessante discussione .....

http://goo.gl/zi1eo


Nel frattempo, sembra che l'Esercito USA, propugnatore iniziale del C-27J (del quale era stato poi espropriato), stia per compiere una clamorosa marcia indietro e NON intenda opporsi alla cancellazione del programma prospettata dall'USAF, cosa che sta creando comunque dissapori anche all'interno della stessa Air Force .....

http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i=8488042&&s=TOP

Gli imminenti tagli al bilancio USA non promettono alcunchè di buono ..... :(
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MatteF88
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Re: C-27J Spartan (e c-27A/g222)

Messaggio da MatteF88 »

richelieu ha scritto: Nel frattempo, sembra che l'Esercito USA, propugnatore iniziale del C-27J (del quale era stato poi espropriato), stia per compiere una clamorosa marcia indietro e NON intenda opporsi alla cancellazione del programma prospettata dall'USAF, cosa che sta creando comunque dissapori anche all'interno della stessa Air Force .....

http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i=8488042&&s=TOP

Gli imminenti tagli al bilancio USA non promettono alcunchè di buono ..... :(
quindi piuttosto che rinunciare a qualche c130j che è un prodotto americano fino al midollo, evitano di comprare un macchina straniera che gli consentirebbe di avere una maggiore flessibiltà operativa e che per di più costa meno..che peccato..
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richelieu
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Re: C-27J Spartan (e c-27A/g222)

Messaggio da richelieu »

Dall'odierno "Daily Report" della "U.S. Air Force Association" .....
Proposed C-27J Sale to Australia

The Pentagon notified Congress of the potential foreign military sale of 10 C-27J transport aircraft and associated equipment and logistical support to Australia.
The deal would be worth up to $950 million, according to a Defense Security Cooperation Agency release.
The proposed sale would allow the Australian Defense Force to improve its airlift capability, including for humanitarian operations and disaster-relief activities in Southeast Asia, stated DSCA.
The Australians retired their 14 DHC-4 Caribou aircraft in 2009, and will soon retire 12 C-130Hs, creating a need for new airlift assets.
The Australians view interoperability with US forces as an "important goal" for future equipment purchases, noted the release.


http://www.dsca.mil/PressReleases/36-b/ ... _11-51.pdf

L-3 is the prime contractor for the C-27J.
This announcement comes at a time when the Air Force is weighing whether it can afford (*) to complete its planned acquisition of 38 C-27Js or must truncate the buy due to a tightening budget and competing priorities.


(*) .... http://www.airforce-magazine.com/DRArch ... sions.aspx
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richelieu
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Re: C-27J Spartan (e c-27A/g222)

Messaggio da richelieu »

Amy Butler fa il punto, su "Ares", sulla situazione del programma "JCA" e sui non facili rapporti che intercorrono in merito fra US Army e USAF .....
Fonte: Ares - A Defense Technology Blog (AW&ST)

U.S. Army, Air Force: The Small Cargo Aircraft Saga Continues

Posted by Amy Butler at 1/13/2012 9:16 AM CST

The U.S. Army and Air Force chiefs of staff are hashing out the details of an MOU on the light cargo lift mission.

If this all sounds familiar, it is. Recall that USAF Gen. T. Michael Moseley's coming out speech as the top Air Force officer at the AFA symposium in the fall of 2005. He took that opportunity to announce that the Air Force was pursuing a new light cargo aircraft procurement.

This proclamation was made oddly as the Army was in the midst of setting up its future cargo aircraft program, which was crafted to replace old Sherpas and provide more immediate access to commanders for cargo support.

Moseley’s push, along with his similar move to take over the Army’s burgeoning UAV force at the time, was seen as an abrupt roles-and-missions grab by the Air Force in the midst of two major wars. In the case of the cargo aircraft role, the Air Force won.

The service eventually took over authority for the buy of the C-27J and sliced it to 38; service officials said they would combine the use of C-27Js and C-130s to provide cargo lift for the Army (though Army officials had long complained that C-130 support was inefficient owing to underloading of these larger aircraft).

But, some Army advocates have grumbled that the service got the short end of the stick. Its Sherpas are still flying, supporting operational missions.

So, the question today as the Army and Air Force both attempt to normalize their fleets after surging for war support for a decade is: What is the right number of small cargo lifters for the direct support role? And, who should lead this role.

Army officials have long argued that an Army officer must lead this mission to ensure that Army commanders’ needs are the priority; they fear that the Air Force will de-emphasize Army unit requirements against the more strategic priorities of regional cargo movements of larger amounts of goods. The Air Force, however, has long countered that it best knows how to provide airborne logistics support across a fleet of aircraft, including C-27J, C-130 and the C-17.

Though the Army-led cargo aircraft program was projected to produce as many as 125 aircraft, the project that was taken over and restructured by the Air Force settled on a buy of 38 aircraft.

Alenia North America has delivered 13 of 21 C-27Js on contract. The sharp reduction in procurement numbers prompted the company to scrap its plans to open a final assembly facility in Florida; the aircraft are being delivered from a plant in Italy.

And, the kicker for the Army is that the Air Force is said to be considering an early termination of the C-27J program to funnel money to other urgent service priorities.

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MatteF88
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Re: C-27J Spartan (e c-27A/g222)

Messaggio da MatteF88 »

richelieu ha scritto:
the Air Force is said to be considering an early termination of the C-27J program to funnel money to other urgent service priorities.[/i]
Tipo rendere compatibili gli F-22 col datalink16?? :lol:
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lorenzo-radi
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Re: C-27J Spartan (e c-27A/g222)

Messaggio da lorenzo-radi »

Salve a tutti e complimenti per il forum!
A proposito di g222:
"sorvolando" l' aeroporto di pisa con google mi sono imbattuto in questo:
Immagine3.jpg
Quello in alto sembra un g222, quello in basso invece cos'è?

Grazie in anticipo per la risposta
Non hai i permessi necessari per visualizzare i file allegati in questo messaggio.
Engineering student in Pisa



ATC:"N123YZ, say altitude"
N123YZ:"ALTITUDE!"

ATC:"N123YZ, say airspeed"
N123YZ:"AIRSPEED!"

ATC:"N123YZ, say cancel IFR"
N123YZ:"Eight thousand feet, one hundred fifty knots indicated."
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MatteF88
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Re: C-27J Spartan (e c-27A/g222)

Messaggio da MatteF88 »

C-119! ... radiato qualche era geologica fa.. :mrgreen:
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richelieu
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Re: C-27J Spartan (e c-27A/g222)

Messaggio da richelieu »

Rappresentò, indimenticato, il simbolo della 46^ Aerobrigata fra gli anni '50 e '70 .....

Immagine

Immagine
MM52-6040 / 46-25 (cn 11079) 46 Aerobrigata C-119G from Pisa visiting Ringway in connection with the World Gliding Championships at Great Hucklow. 51-17367 '46-4' at right.
Manchester - International (Ringway) (MAN / EGCC) - UK - England, August 7, 1954
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richelieu
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Re: C-27J Spartan (e c-27A/g222)

Messaggio da richelieu »

Come previsto ..... nell'ambito dei previsti tagli alle spese per la difesa e nonostante le promesse del suo CSM, l'USAF ha "scaricato" il C-27J .....
The Air Force’s new plan to “divest” 38 of those cargo planes – its C-27J Spartan mini-lifters – represented the end of its latest inter-service tussle with the Army.

At one time, Air Force Chief of Staff Gen. Norton Schwartz was making a solemn pledge to Congress that he had given his word to former Army Chief of Staff Gen. George Casey that the blue-suiters would do right by the C-27, which began as an Army program.

Troops on the battlefield needed a smaller cargo plane to resupply their forward bases, the Army said.

But the Air Force eventually got hold of the C-27, as you’ve read about before, scaled it back and now has declared it a “niche capability.”

That whole getting to rough fields thing? Turns out C-130s can do the job just fine, according to DoD’s documents on Thursday:

“In practice, we did not experience the anticipated airfield constraints for C-130 operations in Afghanistan and expect those constraints to be marginal in future scenarios. Since we have ample inventory of C-130s and the current cost to own and operate them is lower, we no longer need – nor can we afford – a niche capability like the C-27J aircraft. The Air Force and the Army will establish joint doctrine relating to direct support.”
Fonte ..... http://www.dodbuzz.com/2012/01/26/an-altered-landscape/

AleniaAermacchi ..... sentitamente ringrazia ..... :twisted:
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richelieu
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Re: C-27J Spartan (e c-27A/g222)

Messaggio da richelieu »

Intanto ..... fra US Army e USAF ..... volano gli stracci .....
Fonte: Aviation Week and Space Technology

USAF, Army Still Squabbling Over C-27J

By Amy Butler - Washington (Jan 26, 2012)


U.S. military officials are keen on saying they never intend to fight the last war. This is their way of indicating a focus on future conflicts, not on the past.

Apparently, this sentiment does not apply to the interservice skirmishes at the Pentagon. The U.S. Army and Air Force are in the final throes of hashing out an updated agreement on the time-sensitive, direct-support airlift mission, the latest chapter in a years-long saga over how to ship supplies to remote soldiers despite two wars and one stunted buy of Alenia’s C-27J.

The agreement is being made between the chiefs of staff of both services. At issue is how the time-sensitive airlift mission will be handled; this includes the shuttling of small loads of supplies to forward Army units in the field.

The outcome of this cargo rub between the two services could be the first of many such roles-and-missions scrapes. As the Pentagon looks to save money by killing some programs or nixing new ones, the Army and Air Force are also on a crash course regarding the small fleets of tactical, fixed-wing intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance (ISR) aircraft that each have procured since the start of the Iraq invasion in 2003. In the case of the General Atomics Gray Eagle and Reaper UAS, the developmental Enhanced Medium-Altitude Reconnaissance and Surveillance System (Emarss) and MC-12W Project Liberty aircraft, the services operate very similar systems. In at least one case—with Emarss and the MC-12W—lawmakers have suggested that only one service manage a unified fleet.

As it did with its rotary-wing fleet, the Army is trying to reduce the number of unique airframes in its tactical ISR fleet, says Maj. Gen. Anthony Crutchfield, who heads up the Army Aviation Center of Excellence at Fort Rucker, Ala. “We have a plan to divest of some of the different types of aircraft [and shift to] fewer single airframes.” Without saying which aircraft would be let go, Maj. Gen. Tim Crosby, the Army’s program executive officer for aviation, says the service must “pick those that have been the best bang for the buck.”

Though Crosby notes there is still more work to be done on this, the airlift debate is raging.

“The concern is the logistics part,” says Crutchfield. “What we have to sort out is: ‘Who does that?’”

If this sounds familiar, it is.

The last installment of this tug-of-war took place in 2005 when, during his first major speech to the Air Force Association, the then Chief of Staff of the Air Force, Gen. T. Michael Moseley, announced he wanted a new light cargo aircraft. This was considered odd as the Army was in the midst of setting up its future cargo aircraft program, which was then crafted to replace old C-23 Sherpas and provide more immediate access to commanders for cargo support. At the time, the Army moved ahead with its own program because it felt that it had lackluster support by the Air Force to properly back its needs.

Underscoring the need for direct-support activities were the ongoing wars in Afghanistan and Iraq that called for distributing supplies around small, remote Army outposts. Not only were the Sherpas aging, they lacked pressurized cabins, making it difficult to operate them at high altitude in places such as Afghanistan, says Col. Patrick Tierney, director of the Army’s aviation directorate.

Moseley’s push, along with his similar and later move to take over the Army’s burgeoning UAV force, was seen as an abrupt roles-and-missions grab by the Air Force in the midst of these two wars. In the case of the cargo aircraft role, the USAF won.

At the direction of then-Defense Secretary Robert Gates, in 2009 the Air Force took over authority for the C-27J buy and control of the direct-support mission; service officials said they would combine the use of C-27Js and C-130s to provide cargo lift for the Army (though Army officials had long complained that C-130 support was inefficient owing to underloading of these larger aircraft).

Army officials say that in actuality, the CH-47 Chinook fleet has been unduly burdened in providing timely support because the helicopters are used to shuttle goods from C-130s that land at hubs to the remote locales where soldiers are stationed.

“The major rub to us is responsiveness and not efficiency,” says one Army official who requests anonymity. “When a part is needed at the front line, it flies” and shouldn’t have to wait for enough requests to fill a C-130, the official adds. “We are more about effectiveness than efficiency, and [the Air Force is] more about efficiency than effectiveness.”

So, the questions now are: What is the right number of small cargo-lifters for the direct-support role, and how should the mission be managed?

Though both branches agreed to USAF control of the mission in the 2009 pact, the Army is now insisting that language be added to clarify its needs—specifically emphasizing responsiveness, especially when parts or supplies are called for at forward-operating locations.

USAF Lt. Gen. Herbert Carlisle, deputy chief of staff for operations, acknowledges what he calls a “natural tension” for Army commanders wanting quick support.

The outcome of this deal will directly impact how soldiers at such sites are supported in Afghanistan.

Army officials had long argued that an Army officer must oversee this mission to ensure that its commanders’ needs take priority; the fear is that the USAF will de-emphasize Army unit requirements against the more strategic priorities of regional cargo movements. USAF, however, has long countered that it best knows how to provide airborne logistics support across a fleet of aircraft, including the C-27J, C-130 and C-17.

In 2009, the Air Force conducted a demonstration of the direct-support mission using C-27Js and C-130s in Iraq; this validated the service’s plans for a mix of the two for the mission.

Two C-27Js were deployed to Afghanistan in late July 2011 and quickly started flying operational direct support missions, Gen. Raymond Johns said last fall. The C-27Js are apportioned to Army officials there via Tacon (tactical control), although USAF pilots fly the missions, but the C-130s are not. This means the C-27Js are specifically set aside only for intratheater/direct-support missions under Army authority. Though C-130s are used for this mission, they can be reassigned elsewhere in the area, if needed, Johns said.

Army officials are less than satisfied with the Air Force’s delays in delivering C-27Js to the field. At least six were to be in Afghanistan by now, and why they have not been deployed is the “golden question,” the anonymous Army official said.

One industry official says the Army is “trying to hold the Air Force’s feet to the fire to do what they signed up for” in the 2009 pact.

Alenia has delivered 13 of 21 C-27Js on contract. Originally, Alenia officials projected the U.S. market for the C-27J (including Army/Air Force buys) to support as many as 125 aircraft. Tierney said that in 2005, the Army’s projections set a low risk of handling the mission with a fleet of 78 C-27Js and a moderate risk at 54. When Gates shifted the C-27J program from Army control to the Air Force, the buy shrank to 38 aircraft.

The sharp reduction in procurement numbers prompted Alenia to scrap its plans to open a final assembly facility in Florida; the aircraft are being delivered from a plant in Italy.

Air Force Chief of Staff Gen. Norton Schwartz indicated during a recent testimony to Congress that the C-27J faces termination—possibly before all 38 are delivered—due to fiscal pressure. Service officials contend that maintaining a separate fleet for this mission adds to its spending for unique training and logistics, whereas a C-130-based mission could build off of an existing infrastructure. It is unclear whether the service would keep the C-27Js already delivered or divest of them entirely.

Numerous lawmakers and governors associated with states slated to host C-27J Guard units have written to Schwartz, Defense Secretary Leon Panetta and Deputy Defense Secretary Ashton Carter advocating the program. Some of them argue not only for the national security advantages of the aircraft but also note that without those units, jobs in their districts will be in jeopardy.

Meanwhile, Crutchfield notes that the Army’s C-23 Sherpas still support war operations. Without better direct support from USAF, the Army would have to pay $350 million to keep old C-23s operating, and they would still lack a pressurized cabin, Tierney says. Carlislie expects the updated pact to be signed in days.

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ciccioxx92
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Re: C-27J Spartan (e c-27A/g222)

Messaggio da ciccioxx92 »

E quì è all'AirPower09. Godetevelo tutto.
Immagine

"Dai diamanti non nasce niente, dal letame nascono i fiori"
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richelieu
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Re: C-27J Spartan (e c-27A/g222)

Messaggio da richelieu »

La decisione degli Stati Uniti potrebbe ora mettere a repentaglio la vendita all'Australia .....

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... ia-367521/

:x
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MatteF88
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Re: C-27J Spartan (e c-27A/g222)

Messaggio da MatteF88 »

richelieu ha scritto:La decisione degli Stati Uniti potrebbe ora mettere a repentaglio la vendita all'Australia .....

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... ia-367521/

:x
Non ho capito...ma non glieli potrebbe vendere direttamente alenia senza passare da L3 e dal Congresso? Perchè gli australiani li devono comprare per forza dagli USA? Non capisco non capisco... :roll: :-k :scratch: :scratch: :wallb: :wallb:
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richelieu
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Re: C-27J Spartan (e c-27A/g222)

Messaggio da richelieu »

MatteF88 ha scritto:Perchè gli australiani li devono comprare per forza dagli USA? Non capisco non capisco...
Perchè vorrebbero dei C-27J completamente interoperabili con quelli USA che, a livello di equipaggiamenti, sono probabilmente diversi dai nostri .....

http://www.dsca.mil/PressReleases/36-b/ ... _11-51.pdf
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MatteF88
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Re: C-27J Spartan (e c-27A/g222)

Messaggio da MatteF88 »

Ok, grazie!
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richelieu
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Re: C-27J Spartan (e c-27A/g222)

Messaggio da richelieu »

Quale sarà il destino degli "Spartan" dell' Air National Guard ?

Dal "Daily Report" dell' AFA di oggi .....
Spartan Disposition Not Clear Yet

The Air Force hasn't settled yet on a method of disposition for the C-27J Spartan transports that it wants to divest, said Chief of Staff Gen. Norton Schwartz.
"Probably our best option" is to place them in storage in the service's aircraft boneyard at Davis-Monthan AFB, Ariz., Schwartz told reporters during a Jan. 27 briefing.
The are several storage possibilities, including Type 1000 recoverable storage and comparatively less expensive Type 2000 storage that allows maintainers to strip the airplanes for spare parts, he noted.
The Air National Guard already has in its inventory more than 20 of the 38 C-27s that the Air Force planned to procure, but now doesn't want to operate any longer since the service maintains that C-130s are able to support Army units directly in theater at less cost.
Army Chief of Staff Gen. Raymond Odierno said on Jan. 27 he had signed a new memorandum of understanding with the Air Force on direct support that same day.
"We'll mitigate the loss of the C-27," he said. "I'm not sure we'll be able to completely mitigate it, but [the MOU] will help."


(Schwartz transcript) ..... http://www.defense.gov/transcripts/tran ... iptid=4965

(Odierno transcript) ...... http://www.defense.gov/transcripts/tran ... iptid=4964
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MatteF88
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Re: C-27J Spartan (e c-27A/g222)

Messaggio da MatteF88 »

richelieu ha scritto:Quale sarà il destino degli "Spartan" dell' Air National Guard ?
O li mettono in naftalina nel deserto oppure boh.. :roll: :(
Air mobility will take a 133-aircraft divestment. The Air Force will retain 222 C-17s, 52 C-5Ms and 300-plus C-130s. Divestments will include 27 C-5As, 65 older C-130s and all 38 existing and planned C-27s.
Fonte: http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/ ... el=defense
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richelieu
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Re: C-27J Spartan (e c-27A/g222)

Messaggio da richelieu »

Avevo visto poco prima l'articolo di "AW&ST" che hai citato.

Quello che mi lascia perplesso è quanto vi si afferma .....
..... and all 38 existing and planned C-27s.
Non riesco a capire se, nonostante tutto, verranno poi in effetti acquistati tutti i 38 aerei previsti e il reale significato di quell'abbastanza inusitato termine "divestment".

Secondo quanto affermato da Amy Butler, nel suo articolo del 26 Gennaio, per ora ne sarebbero stati ordinati soltanto 21 .....
Alenia has delivered 13 of 21 C-27Js on contract. Originally, Alenia officials projected the U.S. market for the C-27J (including Army/Air Force buys) to support as many as 125 aircraft. Tierney said that in 2005, the Army’s projections set a low risk of handling the mission with a fleet of 78 C-27Js and a moderate risk at 54. When Gates shifted the C-27J program from Army control to the Air Force, the buy shrank to 38 aircraft.
E gli altri 17 ?

Quella frase, in verità alquanto ambigua, sta dunque a significare che verranno ordinati lo stesso e, a consegna avvenuta, inviati ad abbronzarsi, belli nuovi, al sole dell' AMARG ? ..... 8)

Mistero .....

E poi si parla di sprechi ..... :mrgreen:
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MatteF88
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Re: C-27J Spartan (e c-27A/g222)

Messaggio da MatteF88 »

Magari trovano il modo di "girarli" agli australiani, se questi ne sono veramente interessati (gli esemplari già consegnati all'usaf sarebbero quasi dei "chiavi in mano" :) ) ..oppure li conservano davvero nel deserto, d'altra parte gli americani non buttano via niente, la uss Iowa è un museo galleggiante ma viene conservata in modo tale da essere riattivata portata in battaglia se mai necessario....ma son solo ipotesi :)
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richelieu
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Re: C-27J Spartan (e c-27A/g222)

Messaggio da richelieu »

L'Australia ha (aveva?) intenzione di acquistarne 10 ..... però anche il Canada sembra essere interessato all'aereo per il ruolo SAR ..... e, come si sa, quelli sono entrambi alleati di ferro degli USA .....

Inoltre, e non a caso, i nove AgustaWestland VH-71A (US101) "presidenziali" che erano già stati consegnati ..... sono stati poi ceduti recentemente al Canada, che li utilizzerà per trarne pezzi di ricambio per i propri "Cormorant", a prezzi di rottamazione ..... ed erano elicotteri pressochè nuovi .....

:x
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richelieu
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Re: C-27J Spartan (e c-27A/g222)

Messaggio da richelieu »

L' Esercito USA non si rassegna alla perdita degli "Spartan" ..... e ci spera ancora .....

Fonte: Daily Report (AFA) - Wednesday February 22, 2012
Army Hopes to Hold on to C-27Js

Army Chief of Staff Gen. Ray Odierno said he hopes that the Defense Department will retain the C-27J Spartan transports it's already acquired, even though the Air Force last month announced plans to divest the entire Spartan fleet.

For now, Odierno said the few C-27s that are already in use in Afghanistan will remain there until officials decide what to do with the fleet.

"Here is our problem. We have [C-23] Sherpas, which are old and no longer effective," Odierno told defense reporters in Washington, D.C., on Tuesday. "What I don't want to have to do is modernize the Sherpas. I'd like to keep the C-27s we've already purchased. But we haven't purchased that many. That's another problem."

The Air Force has already procured 21 of the 38 C-27s it had intended to acquire for the Air National Guard.

The plan had been for the Air Guard to use the tiny airlifters to provide direct support to Army units.

Instead, the Air Force now intends to attach C-130s to Army units down range to provide that type of support, said Odierno.


—Amy McCullough
Sarà interessante seguire gli eventuali sviluppi .....
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richelieu
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Re: C-27J Spartan (e c-27A/g222)

Messaggio da richelieu »

Una parte in naftalina ..... l'altra, di minor entità, in vendita ..... questo potrebbe essere il destino degli "Spartan" dell' ANG .....
What Becomes of Them?

The Air Force is eying a combination of "recoverable storage" and foreign military sales as ways to dispose of C-27J Spartan light mobility aircraft and RQ-4 Global Hawk Block 30 remotely piloted reconnaissance aircraft, said Secretary Michael Donley.

Service officials are "working through those issues," he said Feb. 24 at a press conference during AFA's Air Warfare Symposium in Orlando, Fla.

Options include placing some of these assets into "Type 1000" storage, which is an elaborate manner of mothballing that would allow the Air Force to bring them back to service, as well as making "lesser numbers" available for sale to overseas allies and friends, he said.

"Our international affairs staff is communicating to potential countries [and] interested partners, asking for them to identify their interest," said Donley.

At the same press conference, Chief of Staff Gen. Norton Schwartz said the Global Hawk Block 30s cannot be used as the basis for the Global Hawk Block 40 variant that is designed for sophisticated ground radar mapping and moving target tracking.

"The structure inside which is required" to carry the Block 40's MP-RTIP radar "is different" and would require significant reworking of the Block 30 airframes, he said.


—John A. Tirpak
Fonte ..... "Daily Report" (AFA) - February 27, 2012
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richelieu
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Re: C-27J Spartan (e c-27A/g222)

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Alenia lancia un avvertimento .....
SINGAPORE — In what analysts see as an unprecedented move, Alenia Aermacchi, the Italian maker of the C-27J, is warning the U.S. government that it will refuse to support the aircraft it sold to the United States if the U.S. resells them to other nations.

The move caught some U.S. officials by surprise and threatens to undermine American efforts to resell the planes on the international market, most likely to Australia, Canada or Taiwan.
Fonte ..... http://www.defensenews.com/article/2012 ... -27J-Sales

Sarebbe auspicabile che tale decisa presa di posizione da parte industriale riceva un adeguato supporto anche a livello governativo .....
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franc
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Re: C-27J Spartan (e c-27A/g222)

Messaggio da franc »

La Alenia ha ragione,però dal punto di vista governativo...l'Italia si schiererebbe contro l'America per una questione che interessa una sua industria e non lo stato in sè?
I'll spread my wings and I'll learn how to fly
I'll do what it takes 'til I touch the sky
-----------------
Cos'è la vita se non l'inseguimento di un sogno?
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MatteF88
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Re: C-27J Spartan (e c-27A/g222)

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richelieu ha scritto:Alenia lancia un avvertimento .....
SINGAPORE — In what analysts see as an unprecedented move, Alenia Aermacchi, the Italian maker of the C-27J, is warning the U.S. government that it will refuse to support the aircraft it sold to the United States if the U.S. resells them to other nations.

The move caught some U.S. officials by surprise and threatens to undermine American efforts to resell the planes on the international market, most likely to Australia, Canada or Taiwan.
Fonte ..... http://www.defensenews.com/article/2012 ... -27J-Sales

Sarebbe auspicabile che tale decisa presa di posizione da parte industriale riceva un adeguato supporto anche a livello governativo .....

Mmmh ma non rischia di essere una mossa autolesionista? A questo punto gli australiani potrebbero buttarsi sul 130J e amen, visto che i caribou ormai hanno la schiena sfondata come quella di un mulo..e l'esigenza di sostituirli si fa sempre piú pressante.. :roll:
Mboh :|
Non sarebbe piú logico trovare un'altro cliente per gli spartan americani? (che mi pare abbiano espresso un parere piú che positivo sulle prestazioni del mezzo il che non è una bocciatura)
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richelieu
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Re: C-27J Spartan (e c-27A/g222)

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MatteF88 ha scritto:
Non sarebbe piú logico trovare un'altro cliente per gli spartan americani? (che mi pare abbiano espresso un parere piú che positivo sulle prestazioni del mezzo il che non è una bocciatura)
Dici questo perchè hai avuto notizie recenti circa la valutazione in corso in Afghanistan ?
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MatteF88
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Re: C-27J Spartan (e c-27A/g222)

Messaggio da MatteF88 »

richelieu ha scritto:
MatteF88 ha scritto:
Non sarebbe piú logico trovare un'altro cliente per gli spartan americani? (che mi pare abbiano espresso un parere piú che positivo sulle prestazioni del mezzo il che non è una bocciatura)
Dici questo perchè hai avuto notizie recenti circa la valutazione in corso in Afghanistan ?
:mrgreen: Ho letto che sono particolarmente contenti del mezzo (non in riferimento al teatro afghano), appena la ripesco dalla rete te la posto!
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richelieu
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Re: C-27J Spartan (e c-27A/g222)

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Il CSM dell'USAF ..... sotto torchio ..... o meglio ..... allo spiedo ..... :mrgreen:
Fonte: Aviationweek.com

Lawmakers Skewer USAF Over Budget Choices

By Jen DiMascio (Feb. 29, 2012)

Congress doesn’t read its witnesses Miranda rights before they testify, but past Pentagon statements were certainly used against Air Force leaders during a Feb. 28 hearing.

Given that the Air Force has rolled out a list of controversial cuts that gore oxen in congressional districts across the country for its fiscal 2013 budget request, Air Force Secretary Michael Donley and Chief of Staff Gen. Norton Schwartz had to expect some heat on Capitol Hill.

But in deciding to stop using Northrop Grumman’s Block 30 Global Hawk and the Alenia-made C-27J Spartan, the Air Force was reversing past positions and agreements. And that gave lawmakers plenty of ammunition to toss toward Donley and Schwartz.

Rep. Tom Rooney (R-Fla.) zeroed in on a letter written by Ashton Carter, the current deputy defense secretary, about six months ago. In that letter, Carter told the chairman of the House Appropriations defense subcommittee that continuing the Global Hawk program was “essential” to national security and that there were no alternatives to the program.

Rooney says Congress has set aside $4 billion to be able to buy 21 Block 30 Global Hawks. “We’ve got 14 made, and now we have a decision to park this vehicle in a garage somewhere for God knows how long,” Rooney says, adding that is difficult for him to explain to his constituents. “What do I tell them?”

Schwartz responded that the Global Hawks would remain in “recoverable storage” and stressed that the Air Force is not talking about using the aircraft for spare parts. “We want to be able to have access to them and as circumstances change, perhaps there will be a time where they will come out of storage,” Schwartz says.

Through the course of the hearing, Schwartz explained that the situation has changed since six months ago. The Joint Requirements Oversight Council reduced the demand for the Global Hawk’s persistent high-altitude surveillance. And in an environment where the Air Force is helping the Pentagon carve $487 billion out of its budget, ending the Global Hawk provides the Air Force with $2.5 billion over the next several years. “Not trivial,” he says.

Schwartz faced a similar line of questioning regarding the C-27J, an aircraft that the Air Force was buying to help support Army missions. The air chief acknowledged that buying the C-27J was a “personal commitment” from him to former Army Chief of Staff Gen. George Casey.

Rep. Roscoe Bartlett (R-Md.) pressed Schwartz on how the Air Force determined the C-27J is more expensive to operate than Lockheed Martin’s C-130 aircraft.

Schwartz said that basing and contractor logistics support helped affect the life-cycle cost of the aircraft. Plus, he took aim at one of the main arguments for buying the C-27J – that it can land on unimproved runways closer to the fight.

“There is not a single airfield in Afghanistan today that the C-27 is using that the C-130 cannot. That is the reality on the ground today,” Schwartz said.

Still, Rep. Joe Courtney (D-Conn.), hinted that the Air Force may have a substantial public relations problem because the decision goes beyond halting the purchase of C-27Js. The Air Force may put them in storage.

“These are planes that are bought and paid for,” Courtney says. “It feels like a ‘60 Minutes’ moment in terms of the taxpayer.”

To that end, Schwartz says the Air Force could also sell them to other air forces around the world, and that other air forces are interested. “There’s a couple of options, which again haven’t played out and certainly that would happen in the next number of months,” Schwartz said.

But according to Courtney, Alenia North America, the manufacturer of the C-27J, isn’t very pleased “with us turning around and flipping the planes,” and members of Congress are still looking for answers.

“We’re struggling to understand why perfectly new planes are not being used,” he says.

tom75
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Re: C-27J Spartan (e c-27A/g222)

Messaggio da tom75 »

Nota tecnica sulla motorizzazione: il C27J è dotato di 2 turboprop AE2100D2 della Rolls Royce (divisione americana ex Allison Engine Company) di classe 4637 SHP. Il controllo è basato su FADEC.
Il motore è l'erede del T56 (sempre dell'Allison) in dotazione al vecchio C130.
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richelieu
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Re: C-27J Spartan (e c-27A/g222)

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Ulteriori informazioni dal produttore .....

http://www.rolls-royce.com/defence/prod ... e_2100.jsp
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sidew
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Re: C-27J Spartan (e c-27A/g222)

Messaggio da sidew »

Non mi stupirei se venisse fuori qualche caso di corruzione da parte della Lockheed-Martin.
Aldo

"Oops!" - Shannon Foraker, Ashes of victory
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richelieu
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Re: C-27J Spartan (e c-27A/g222)

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sidew ha scritto:Non mi stupirei se venisse fuori qualche caso di corruzione da parte della Lockheed-Martin.
Non sarebbe una novità .....
Abbiamo dapprima visto Lockheed nel ruolo di partner di Alenia nello sviluppo del C-27J quale velivolo che avrebbe dovuto integrare il C-130J in particolari contesti operativi, successivamente nel ruolo di concorrente (C-130J) in occasione della competizione JCA .....

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/ ... F05016.xml

..... subito dopo è iniziata l'azione dell'Air Force tesa ad estromettere l'Esercito dal programma e a ridurre la consistenza dello stesso da oltre cento velivoli a soli 38 ..... sino alla completa cancellazione nell'ambito dei tagli alle spese della difesa.

E ..... chi c'è rimasto?
Guarda caso ..... il C-130J di Lockheed .....
Se poi uno pensa male ..... deve forse essere considerato maligno ?
tom75
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Re: C-27J Spartan (e c-27A/g222)

Messaggio da tom75 »

Considerando che le altre nazioni europee stanno buttando soldi a palate sul A400M e non investiranno su altri trasporti militari pensare che la Lockheed possa fare pressioni per il C130 non mi sembra inverosimile.....in Italia ne sappiamo qualcosa
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MatteF88
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Re: C-27J Spartan (e c-27A/g222)

Messaggio da MatteF88 »

Beh dai dire che stanno buttando dei soldi forse è eccessivo, è vero che il costo è lievitato (ma in quale programma, specie se multinazionale, i costi non sono aumentati a dismisura e i tempi non si sono biblicamente allungati?), peró stanno sviluppando una piattaforma che è a metà strada tra un Herc e un C-17, la quale torna utile a chi sta stretto il 130 ma che con il globemaster avrebbe qualcosa di troppo...son l'unico che la pensa cosí? :oops: :)
richelieu ha scritto:Se poi uno pensa male ..... deve forse essere considerato maligno ?
Allora io son maligno :evil: :mrgreen:
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