Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) per l'India

[sidew]

Il Meteor é ongoing
ma le altre capacitá e clearance sono state richieste dagli users ma non approvate dalle nazioni.

Curiosità, i EuroJet con ugelli a spinta vettoriale erano una desiderata delle singole nazioni o una previsione di espansione delle capacità del prodotto?

[richelieu]

Is there something going wrong ?

India’s M-MRCA Fighter Competition: Rafale is L-1, but No Deal Yet .....

Fonte ..... http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/mir ... ges-01989/

[FAS]

Il Meteor é ongoing
ma le altre capacitá e clearance sono state richieste dagli users ma non approvate dalle nazioni.

Curiosità, i EuroJet con ugelli a spinta vettoriale erano una desiderata delle singole nazioni o una previsione di espansione delle capacità del prodotto?

voluta in principio dalla RAF, poi proposta dal consorzio per il velivolo da esportare....

[MatteF88]

Sources say the Indian navy is considering the carrier-capable Rafale M as a possible acquisition, with a potential cost benefit to come from the air force's pending deal for 126 of the type to meet its medium multi-role combat aircraft requirement.

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... le-372925/

[richelieu]

Sources say the Indian navy is considering the carrier-capable Rafale M as a possible acquisition .....

Alla faccia loro .....

..... hanno appena acquistato non so quanti MiG-29K nuovi di trinca, stanno sviluppando una variante navale del loro "Tejas" (che magari sarà pronto nel 2050 ..... ) ..... ed ora starebbero pensando anche al "Rafale-M" ..... si vede proprio che questi Indiani non hanno problemi di bilancio .....

Vabbè che hanno dei vicini alquanto ingombranti .....

[MatteF88]

Se per scegliere il Rafale M dovranno rifare tutta la tiritera del programma MMRCA....auguri... faró in tempo ad avere i capelli grigi per quella data....

[richelieu]

La recente perdita di alcuni importanti contratti militari con l'India (che il paese asiatico ha stipulato con aziende occidentali e che, in passato, sarebbero stati con tutta probabilità di suo appannaggio) sta preoccupando non poco la Russia .....

Russia Tries To Arrest Losses In Indian Defense Market .....

By Jay Menon

Source: Aerospace Daily & Defense Report (AW&ST) - July 19, 2012

NEW DELHI — Russia is drawing up plans to claw its way back to the top of the Indian defense market, which is supplemented by the U.S. and other European suppliers.

Russia was at one time the biggest arms supplier to India and has been a reliable vendor since the Cold War era. But due to several commercial issues including overpricing, Russia rapidly lost the defense pie in the South Asian nation. In 2011, India was the world’s largest recipient of arms, accounting for 10% of global arms imports.

Russian Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin, during his visit to New Delhi on July 17, advocated for the joint development of defense equipment with India that could be sold to other countries.

“We wants to move from basic trade to joint development projects with India in defense,” Rogozin says.

During his talk with India authorities in New Delhi, Rogozin expressed keen interest in joint ventures for the production of cargo and passenger aircraft.

“The BrahMos missile system is a shining example of this type of cooperation. Joint development of the Fifth-Generation Fighter and the Multirole Transport Aircraft, as well as the licensed production in India of Su-30 aircraft and T-90 tanks, are other examples of flagship cooperation programs that are currently under way in this area,” an Indian defense ministry official says.

India has also asked Russia to start inducting the 290-km-range BrahMos supersonic cruise missiles into its naval fleet. The two sides formed a joint venture to produce the supersonic cruise missile in 1998, and since then all three wings of the Indian armed forces have ordered BrahMos for their inventory. But the Russian side has yet to do so.

“Several issues . . . continue to affect the India-Russia defense relationship,” the official says. “There have been repeated delays in Russia implementing major weapon orders, including for the aircraft carrier, Admiral Gorshkov. Russia has also tended to raise costs midway through the execution of agreed-upon commitments. Roadblocks have also emerged for the transfer of technology and the uninterrupted supply of defense spares.”

Over the past 12 months, Russian arms manufacturers have faced a string of setbacks in India. Last year, Russia’s MiG-35 fighter lost India’s Medium Multirole Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) competition to Dassault’s Rafale. The $15 billion program is replacing the aging Russian MiG-21 fighter jets currently used by the Indian air force.

Other losers in the competition were the Lockheed Martin F-16IN Super Viper and Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, the Eurofighter Typhoon and the Saab JAS-39NG Gripen.

Defense Minister A.K. Antony said after the winner was declared that the country’s defense acquisition policy was guided by professional and not political considerations. “India’s defense purchases are not propelled by political considerations and all vendors will get a level playing field,” Antony said.

The Russian Mi-28N Night Hunter also lost a tender for 22 attack helicopters for the Indian military to Boeing’s AH-64D Apache.

Nonetheless, analysts say that given the two countries’ legacy of defense cooperation and ongoing projects, Russia will remain India’s major defense partner for the foreseeable future. However, in view of the increased competition for the Indian defense market, joint development and production of new weapon systems is likely to become a crucial factor in sustaining Indo-Russian cooperation in the coming years.

[Mikoyan89]

"The Russian Mi-28N Night Hunter also lost a tender for 22 attack helicopters for the Indian military to Boeing’s AH-64D Apache."

Questa me l'ero persa....

[sidew]

http://www.corriere.it/notizie-ultima-o ... 2237.shtml

(ANSA) - NEW DELHI - L'India ha deciso di firmare con la Russia, fra alcuni mesi, un mega-contratto da 35 miliardi di dollari per la partecipazione allo sviluppo del futuristico caccia di 5/a generazione Sukhoi T-50 che andra' a far parte dell'aeronautica militare indiana nel 2022. Secondo il quotidiano The Times of India, tutto e' pronto per la firma che significa, anche, un no definitivo alle avances degli Usa per una partecipazione indiana al Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) o al F-35 'Lightning-II'. (ANSA).

[richelieu]

un no definitivo alle avances degli Usa per una partecipazione indiana al Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) o al F-35 'Lightning-II'. (ANSA).

Classico esempio di "competenza" giornalistica nostrana .....

Comunque ..... non è detto che gli Stati Uniti possano offrire, prima o poi, all'India lo F-35 (sia B che C) per l'impiego navale ..... visto che c'è l'intenzione, da parte della Marina indiana, di dotarsi in un prossimo futuro di portaerei di tipo convenzionale .....

[FAS]

Strano.... é risaputo che l'India non ha uffici delegati al controllo di "export control", il pentagono non lo avrebbe mai permesso

in piu una questione che scioglie ogni dubbio sono le International Traffic in Arms Regulations (ITAR)...... basta spulciarsele e vedere la posizione degli indiani in merito

[richelieu]

MMRCA ..... partita chiusa ?

Pressioni da parte di Germania e Russia affinchè la competizione venga riaperta .....

Rafale MMRCA Deal: Last Minute Glitches? .....

Fonte ..... http://www.defencetalk.com/rafale-mmrca ... hes-44384/

[richelieu]

Sembra che l'affare stia andando in porto .....

India to ink $11 bln MMRCA deal with Rafale by next month: IAF .....

India plans to sign the $11 billion MMRCA (Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft) deal with French Rafale by the end of this month-end or next month, a senior Indian Air Force (IAF) official said on Saturday.

Fonte ..... http://brahmand.com/news/India-to-ink-1 ... /1/10.html

Talune dichiarazioni del Maresciallo dell' Aria Rajinder Singh non possono però non suscitare qualche perplessità per il loro contenuto ..... che ha un che di bombastico .....

..... the Air Marshal said India would have one of the most modern airforces of the world in the next three-four years, as he touched upon recent contracts on acquisition of aircraft, weapon platforms, systems and radars, among others, for IAF.

"By 2017, you will have (in IAF) the most modern Air Force in the world", he said.

Sarà .....

[MatteF88]

Leggevo oggi su flightglobal tra le notizie riguardanti l'ILA 2012 (mi scuso ma purtroppo non riesco a postare il link via telefono) che il direttore di eurofighter (o capo?
o ad? Come si traduce chief tra gli incarichi aziendali?) crede che l'india possa rivalutare la bontà dell'offerta fatta da eurofighter.....e inoltre diceva che la sconfitta nel programma MMRCA è stato uno tra i motivi per cui è stato lanciato il programma P1E che prevede radar AESA, nuove armi e altre migliorie...

[richelieu]

Leggevo oggi su flightglobal tra le notizie riguardanti l'ILA 2012 (mi scuso ma purtroppo non riesco a postare il link via telefono) che il direttore di eurofighter (o capo? o ad? Come si traduce chief tra gli incarichi aziendali?) crede che l'india possa rivalutare la bontà dell'offerta fatta da eurofighter.....e inoltre diceva che la sconfitta nel programma MMRCA è stato uno tra i motivi per cui è stato lanciato il programma P1E che prevede radar AESA, nuove armi e altre migliorie...

Eccolo qua .....

ILA: Eurofighter chief Casolini outlines priorities .....

Defeat in India's medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) contest by the Dassault Rafale in January was one factor which contributed to the P1E decision, as a Cassidian-led Eurofighter Typhoon bid had been strongly favoured to land the 126-unit deal.

L'intero articolo ..... http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... es-376246/ .....


Eurofighter CEO (Chief Executive Officer) Enzo Casolini .....

[MatteF88]

Danke!

[MatteF88]

Sembra che l'affare stia andando in porto .....

India to ink $11 bln MMRCA deal with Rafale by next month: IAF .....

India plans to sign the $11 billion MMRCA (Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft) deal with French Rafale by the end of this month-end or next month, a senior Indian Air Force (IAF) official said on Saturday.

Ora pare che la conclusione della trattativa e la firma del contratto arriveranno per Marzo 2013
http://www.aviationweek.com/awmobile/Ar ... 498358.xml

[mendris]

http://www.idrw.org

Il pres. Hollande in India la prossima settimana. Fra gli argomenti indiscussione... Rafale!

[MatteF88]

ma va? non l'avrei mai detto..

[MatteF88]

Ormai bisognerebbe chiamarlo "Rafale per l'India, vicina la firma"....
http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... ce-382059/

[richelieu]

Mica male come forbice ..... ben 8 miliardi di Dollari .....

As per the Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) contract, estimated to be worth $12-20 billion, 18 of the 126 fighter aircraft will be bought in flyaway condition from Dassault and the remaining 108 will be manufactured by HAL later this decade.

Fonte ..... http://www.aviationweek.com/Article.asp ... 546407.xml

Unlike Browne, Antony declined to give a timeframe for when he expects the contract to be signed. He says there are "six or seven" layers before the MMRCA deal reaches the Cabinet Committee on Security, which will make the final decision on the procurement, the value of which has been estimated between $12-20 billion.

Fonte ..... http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... ce-382059/

.

[mendris]

Effettivamente è molto tempo che si parla di 126 apparecchi per 10 miliardi di USD... aerei senza motore forse. Ma probabilmente non si è ancora molto in chiaro su chi costruirà veramente gli apparecchi. Su riviste svizzere è stata fatta notare la rinuncia da parte dell'industria indiana di costruire su licenza i PC-7... che non sono jet da combattimento di 4a generazione. Distante e complicata l' India.

[richelieu]

Adelante, Pedro ..... con juicio .....

India's Rafale Jet Talks Brighten .....

By Reuters (via "AW&ST") - February 14, 2013

India and France are speeding up negotiations on a $10 billion deal for 126 Rafale aircraft following months of delays because of disagreements over the cost of building them in India, two Indian Defense Ministry officials told Reuters.

India started exclusive talks with French Dassault Aviation’s Rafale for a 126-plane order in January 2012, over the competing Eurofighter Typhoon. The two sides still have to sign a final contract.

The deal is likely to be discussed during a two-day visit by French President Francois Hollande to India beginning on Thursday, but both sides have played down the chances of it being finalised.

The talks have progressed slowly because of differences about how to price technology transfer, sourcing of spares and the selection of an Indian partner, the officials said.

“There are three issues of contention - pricing of transfer of technology, sourcing from India and the joint venture with Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL),” said a senior official at the ministry, who said negotiations had been delayed by a few months, largely because of those issues.

Another official said the contentious points had been mostly resolved and the deal could be finalised as soon as July.

Dassault declined to comment.

The second official said Dassault had earlier asked India to pay up to $2 billion more for the future upgrading of technology that would be transferred over the 30-year life-cycle of the deal.

French Foreign Minister Laurent Fabius said on Sunday that talks with India to complete the long-awaited first export order for Rafale were looking up. At an air show in Bangalore last week, India pledged not to let defense cuts stand in the way of efforts to finalise the deal.

Following India’s strong objections to the cost escalation, France has broadly agreed to review its decision but negotiations were still going on for calculating the price for the maintenance and life-cycle cost of the planes, the second official said.

India has been insisting that at least 30-50% of the value of the contract be sourced from Indian companies, while Dassault wanted to lower that percentage, saying Indian firms do not have the capacity to supply that quantity of parts, the official said.

India revised an offset policy for procurements of arms last year, and specifies that defense contract over 3 billion rupees must plough back at least 30% of the contract value into India as offsets.

Since 2007, Indian companies have secured sourcing contracts worth more than $4 billion under this policy.

“The contention is also over the pricing - you can put different value to hardware, services including transfer of technology,” said the first official, who declined to be identified because of the sensitivity of the issue.

Hollande, accompanied by ministers and corporate delegates, is likely to discuss the sale of nuclear plants to India and investment in other sectors, India’s Foreign Ministry said.

Under the Rafale deal, Dassault is expected to send 18 ready-made jets, then manufacture the rest in India.

India expects the deal will provide business of $4 billion to $5 billion to Indian companies, said the second ministry official, who has knowledge of the talks.

Both officials said another contentious issue in the negotiations was the selection of India’s state-run Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) as partner of Dassault to manufacture planes in India.

Rafale has expressed doubts about the technological capability of HAL to manufacture such a sophisticated fighter jet, the official said. A HAL program to manufacture advanced jet trainers is running years behind schedule.

However, India has told French negotiators that provisions of entering into a joint venture with HAL to produce fighter jets was non-negotiable and there was no question of involving any private company in the deal, the officials said.

The visit by the French president could further help speed up the negotiations, the second official said.

He said both countries were committed to the deal, and India’s defense minister, A.K. Antony, and the Indian air force chief, N.A.K Browne, were making it a top priority during the upcoming fiscal year that begins in April.

[richelieu]

E Mr. Cameron ci prova .....

Laddove Finmeccanica cede, Cameron ci infila i suoi Typhoon .....

Il premier inglese in visita in India rilancia il settore della Difesa al traino britannico.
Le preoccupazioni di Singh e la fame di armi.

Fonte ..... http://www.difesa.it/Sala_Stampa/rasseg ... dfIndex=26

.

[MatteF88]

Prima o poi c'è la faranno a finalizzare l'acquisto....

India’s plan to buy 126 fighter-jets from Dassault Aviation could be delayed as the two sides struggle to reach an agreement over the role of state-run Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL), two sources familiar with the matter said.

India picked the Dassault-made Rafale jet for exclusive negotiations in January 2012 after a hotly contested bidding war with rival manufacturers, but it is still to finalise the $15 billion deal, one of the world’s largest defence import orders.

Under the initial terms of the proposed deal, Dassault was expected to provide 18 fighters in “fly-away” condition, and then let HAL manufacture the rest in India.

However, Dassault now wants two separate contracts to be signed - one for the ready-made ones, and another for the rest to be built by HAL, but India opposes that proposal, an Indian Defence Ministry official told Reuters.

http://www.aviationweek.com/Article.asp ... 565826.xml

[MatteF88]

Ad un anno e 9 mesi dalla scelta del Rafale ancora non si è trovato l'accordo...e la firma non è prevista prima di aprile 2014 quando inizierà il nuovo anno fiscale in India...
http://www.aviationweek.com/Article.asp ... 626905.xml

[bigshot]

Speriamo in un colpo di scena!

[richelieu]

Speriamo in un colpo di scena!

Più che altro il colpo lo ha preso, purtroppo, il povero funzionario indiano preposto alle acquisizioni .....

The sudden death on Wednesday of Arun Kumar Bal, Ministry of Defence's pointsperson on acquisitions and specifically the MMRCA deal, is tragic, and a major setback to the deal, since he was fully in control of the acquisition, said Browne.
Bal had suffered a massive heart attack earlier this week near his Delhi residence.

Fonte ..... http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/iaf- ... 13111.html
.

[bigshot]

Speriamo in un colpo di scena!

Più che altro il colpo lo ha preso, purtroppo, il povero funzionario indiano preposto alle acquisizioni .....

The sudden death on Wednesday of Arun Kumar Bal, Ministry of Defence's pointsperson on acquisitions and specifically the MMRCA deal, is tragic, and a major setback to the deal, since he was fully in control of the acquisition, said Browne.
Bal had suffered a massive heart attack earlier this week near his Delhi residence.

Fonte ..... http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/iaf- ... 13111.html
.

Ok, ma il tipo è morto recentemente, mentre "l'affare rafale" è fermo da oltre un anno.

[MatteF88]

With general elections expected before May, corruption scandals over high-profile defense deals, and a deflated rupee, Defense Minister A.K. Antony, who has cultivated an image of integrity, has taken a go-slow approach on vitally needed equipment projects.
...
That includes the contract to buy 126 Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) Rafales from Dassault, which won the competition in January 2012. The delay could extend until the end of this year and has forced the air force to extend the operational life of aging aircraft through continued upgrades.
...
“If the MMRCA contract is signed in 2015, the first of 18 aircraft will be delivered after 32 months in 2018 and the last of the remaining 108 aircraft, to be made in India, will become operational in 2025,” Mehta writes.

http://www.aviationweek.com/Article.asp ... 658973.xml

Vogliono prendere i francesi per sfinimento

Tra l'altro (http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/fra ... ime-05991/) nel 2017, se non ci saranno ordini dall'estero, dovrebbe completarsi la produzione del rafale...

[richelieu]

Vogliono prendere i francesi per sfinimento

Tra l'altro (http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/fra ... ime-05991/) nel 2017, se non ci saranno ordini dall'estero, dovrebbe completarsi la produzione del rafale...

Se tale evento dovesse verificarsi (ma non lo credo) ..... costituirebbe, per l'intera Francia, uno smacco di portata storica ..... e sarebbe, a mio modesto modo di vedere, anche abbastanza meritato in quanto proprio la sua uscita dal programma Eurofighter è stata una delle principali cause dell'attuale situazione di mercato.
La presenza, infatti, nella sola Europa di due caccia con caratteristiche analoghe ed in concorrenza fra di loro ha portato alle esiziali conseguenze che sono oggi sotto i nostri occhi.

[MatteF88]

Penso anche io che sia un eventualità abbastanza remota (qualcosa riusciranno a piazzare prima o poi o, chissà ,rallenteranno un po' la produzione per tirare avanti un po' ), certo é che finora, pur essendo l'ordine indiano numericamente importante (anche se solo 18 esemplari verranno/verrebbero costruiti in Francia) , diversi concorsi sono stati fallimentari tipo quello Coreano, il brasiliano, svizzero e non solo...le occasioni perse a mio giudizio cominciano a essere parecchie..

[richelieu]

Già la produzione del Rafale è ridotta ai minimi termini .....

http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/the-d ... tion-rate/

[richelieu]

Questa notizia, guarda caso, risale a proprio a ieri ....

India, Dassault Rafale Deal Appears Stalled .....

Negotiations over the multibillion dollar deal to sell 126 Dassault Rafale jets to India have stalled, according to Indian Defence Ministry sources, who say the sticking point involves issues governing license-production of the jets at state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL).

A series of meetings held over the past three months have failed to resolve the stalemate, the sources said, meaning it is unlikely the deal will be finalized during the current New Delhi administration.

L'intero articolo ..... http://mobile.defensenews.com/article/302040016



P.S. ..... Una richiesta allo Staff .....
Questa discussione, iniziata ormai da parecchio tempo (quando la situazione poteva apparire sotto una diversa prospettiva), reca il titolo "Eurofighter per l'India, vicina la firma" .....
Non sarebbe ora possibile intitolarla in modo diverso, ma più consono ..... tipo, ad esempio, "Rafale per l'India, la firma ancora lontana" ?
Ringrazio per l'attenzione .....
.

[richelieu]

Ce vojon li quattrini .....

India’s much-awaited purchase of 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) for the Indian air force from French firm Dassault Aviation will be further delayed as negotiations to calculate the life-cycle cost haven’t been settled and there is no money for any new buys, Defense Minister A. K. Antony says.

Fonte ..... http://www.aviationweek.com/Article.asp ... 661156.xml


"Rafale fighter jet deal deferred, no money left, shocks A K Antony" .....

http://www.financialexpress.com/news/ra ... ny/1223812